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And so you see it with, you know, the B-word, as you said. But so it's very common to hear women laughingly refer to their friends with that word. But then there's a sense that, you know, a guy should never say it to a woman.

And, you know, you might say, well, that's a clear rule. But it's also a confusing rule, you know? And I think it's a shock for Eve to hear her son use this word in a sexual context. And I think she immediately thinks that he learned it from porn, where - because he certainly wouldn't have anybody modeling that kind of language for him in real life. So, you know, she's assuming her son watches porn.

And then once he's out of the house, she starts watching a lot of porn. And would you describe the kind of porn she's especially interested in? Well, she receives an anonymous text that applies a certain label to her, which you and I have agreed to say - she's a sexy mom, a mom who is sexually desirable. People will know the acronym. And she's offended by it. And it's a dirty text. But at the same time, she realizes she's not really sure about what the term means.

And she goes to look it up the way we do. And she realizes that it's not quite the old Mrs. It's a more neutral, and possibly even complimentary, term suggesting that, you know, you may be older. You may be a mom. But you're still desirable. And in the course of doing this, she's led to a website that basically consists of ordinary women in their 30s and 40s, you know, sending in - or their husbands or their partners sending in videos of them engaged in sex.

So it's highly amateur. And it's just about people saying, hey, this is me. Here's my - here, you can get a glimpse into my bedroom. And she's surprised to find herself watching lesbian porn. You know, she samples the menu, which is vast. And at a certain point, she settles on this lesbian porn as - you know, she's never thought of herself in this way.

But this porn turns her on. And I think it leads her to the sense that there are sexual possibilities in her world that she hasn't investigated yet. In the sexy mother category of lesbian porn laughter You describe it as often beginning with a reluctant woman grumpily washing dishes or mopping the floor, when the doorbell rings. And then a more confident woman arrives with a bottle of wine and a bit of exposed cleavage, and then the action begins.

Did you watch a lot of this before writing the novel? Laughter I watched enough to write the novel. And it was really interesting because, you know, if you - I mean, people have different responses to porn, obviously.

And some of it is, you know, disturbing. And some of it is just too much. But I did find that I was especially interested by this category of porn that involved a kind of a seduction because it was, I think, very different from, you know, the stereotypical male porn that would just sometimes just launch right in.

You know, nobody wants any talking. But there was this sense that, you know - and I guess maybe this is the definition of a certain kind of female-friendly porn - that it was about two people connecting and about - it was about seduction, actually, very clearly.

And then, in contrasting that with her son - with Eve's son - he grows up in a boy culture where date rape doesn't seem like it's necessarily wrong to the boys.

And if you're a guy who tries to intervene and stop date sexual harassment or date rape, you're going to be bullied for it. And it makes it very confusing for the boys, I think. And I'd like to know what you were thinking about when you were writing this character who is kind of subscribing to that kind of behavior and language and not really understanding what's wrong with it, even though he grows up in a family that wouldn't tolerate that kind of behavior.

Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest : NPR

Right, and he would say that it was wrong if you asked him about it. And I do think that I was really interested in the fact that, you know, we talk way more about consent than we did when I was in college. When were you in college, by the way? I graduated in And, you know, I think the - a whole sort of body of knowledge of, you know, or just even the category of sexual harassment didn't fully exist. Like, I think I certainly knew students who'd had affairs with teachers.

And that was sort of considered, you know, a little bit risky but not beyond the pale. And, you know, it just hadn't been codified as an offense at that point. It would soon change. But I will say, you know, we didn't speak as much about consent. We didn't speak as much about sexual boundaries. I think we were closer to the sexual revolution.

tom and porn

It was right at the moment when AIDS started to really change people's sexual behaviors. But it is interesting to me that, you know, students now have all these workshops and sessions about consent. And yet it does seem like the problem - I don't know if it's getting better. Statistically, it's hard to say. But it does seem that these guys are somewhat immune to all of the teaching.

Or they arrive at college still expecting to have that party that they've been dreaming about. Let's take a short break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Tom Perrotta. His new novel is called "Mrs. And if you're just joining us, my guest is writer Tom Perrotta. The son in this novel - the boy who is going to college and is in college for a good deal of the book - he's oblivious to girls as equals, to girls as, like, full human beings, to girls as sexual partners, as opposed to truly, like, sexual objects or appliances.

And he just - really, he's oblivious. Laughter Yeah, and I, you know, it - when you read stories about sexual assault on campus, and frat parties and every - you just sort of - it does seem that there's some kind of stubborn culture of male entitlement that is somehow resistant to all of these pushes to change it.

And, you know, as a writer, I just thought that was - it would be really interesting to try and get into the mind of a kid like this. And, you know, I will say he's oblivious, but he does find himself attracted to a young woman who is very much on the other side of the divide. She sees herself as being very involved in social justice.

They connect because they have autistic siblings. And he goes to a group that she leads to talk about the challenges of people with autistic siblings. But he goes there, mainly, because he's interested in her. And I will say, over the course of the book, in some ways, she illuminates him.

I don't know that she brings him into full consciousness. He's a very flawed and oblivious guy throughout. But she does challenge some of his assumptions. And college challenges some of his assumptions. He's resistant to those challenges.

tom and porn

But I will say he gets some little bit of education over the course of the book. Everyone in your book is having some kind of sexual or sexual identity or gender identity crisis. And you think that's one of the things that defines our time now, right?

And I was writing the book at that moment when, you know, what had been a kind of fairly rarified academic discussion of gender fluidity suddenly really entered the mainstream culture. And, you know, I was trying to situate my characters in that conversation, where - you know, I think Eve, for instance, has a transgender professor in her gender and society class. And, you know, Brendan's sort of masculine view of the world is challenged by Amber, the young woman I was just talking about.

So I really was trying to react in more or less real time to this cultural conversation that went from peripheral to central in what felt like record time. So the mother, for instance - she's taking a course on gender and society for - at a community college which has a lot of, you know, like, adult students and students who are, like, working.

So the students are assigned to write, quote, "autobiographically and analytically about their own problematic experiences on the gender spectrum with special emphasis on the social construction of identity, the persistence of sexism in a post-feminist culture and the subversion of heteronormative discourse by LGBTQIA voices. It's language that comes from - I think it's fair to say it comes from academia.

Would you say that's true? So what do you think about when you hear, like, the language to describe sexual identity, orientation, gender constructs?

Do you hear that language that originates in academia and is being used to describe, really, like, personal, intimate, volatile subjects? You know, I think it is - it can be problematic. I mean, to use another academic term, there is something alienating about academic language. And there's something maybe a little alienating about people suddenly being told, you know, you can't say that anymore.

And, you know, a lot of what's emanating from academia is this sort of set of restrictions. You can't say this. And there's been, I think, a lot of resentment on the part of people who feel like, hey, I never signed on to that set of terminology.

And, sometimes, they might, you know - I mean, it really is a good question as to whether or not we need new terms, or at least we need maybe to be a little more forgiving of people who aren't up to date on the most recent set of dictates about how this or that can be spoken of. Tom Perrotta's new novel, "Mrs. Fletcher," is now out in paperback. After a break, we'll hear more from Perrotta about the book. And Maureen Corrigan reviews a new short story collection from Lauren Groff.

All the characters have some connection to the state of Florida. We're listening to Terry's interview recorded last July with Tom Perrotta. His novels "Election" and "Little Children" were adapted into films. HBO's planning a pilot based on Perrotta's latest novel, "Mrs. Fletcher," which is now out in paperback. It's about a divorced single mother who's facing life as an empty nester now that her teenaged son has gone off to college. She runs a senior citizens center and is taking a community college class on gender and society taught by a transgender woman.

The son is having trouble adapting to college life and is getting called out for his sexist behavior. So did you come of age with feminism and with the gay rights movement?

So I went to college in from a working-class high school. And so I really did have to have my consciousness raised. I came feeling probably the way my parents had. I would say, like, oh, there were no gay people in my high school. And, sometimes, I would make homophobic jokes.

And I remember one day - well, a couple things happened. One, I had a wonderful professor who was gay. And I suddenly realized that I was an idiot for talking about Things I didn't know.

But I also had another friend, you know, just say to me like, why do you care? Why does it matter to you what somebody else does, you know, in their bedroom? And laughter I really was just - I had no answer for that. Why do I care? Because it made me feel superior, I guess.

And I think there's a line in the book where Margo says, you know, feeling superior is its own reward. And I think, you know, all it took was just a few people asking me, why did I feel this way? Why did I think that way? And, you know, I changed the way that a lot of Americans did over those years. Another thing that I think is explored in your novel is the difference between the sex people are attracted to when watching pornography and what they want or feel comfortable with in real life.

And for some people, that's the same, even though it might be hard to get in real life what you've watched on porn. But for other people, it's really different.

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You can be turned on by something in porn and not feel at all comfortable with that in real life. Is that something you wanted to explore in the book? You know, I think that I was just very interested in the way that porn encourages us to think about sex, which is it breaks it up into all these categories. And I think some of them are incredibly specific and I guess, you know, would be, you know, their fetishes or whatever.

But I think anybody who's spent any time in that realm, you know, will just suddenly be exposed to something that you never even thought about or that you might have thought was, you know, not your cup of tea.

And then you start going, that's more interesting laughter than I thought. Or, you know, I find that arousing or whatever. So that was definitely a part of porn that's really interesting 'cause I think that most of us - we don't know what other people do. And - but we don't want to do things that our partners are going to find shocking or, you know, embarrassing. But now, suddenly, we have all this information that sort of suggests that all these people are doing all these things.

And maybe there's more things on heaven and earth than we dreamt of before. But that is also in the realm of fantasy sometimes.

And in reality, it's just not going to work. Or it's just not what it felt like on screen when somebody else was doing it.

So the mother, Eve, wanting some kind of adventure in her life with the new freedom that she has - like, she misses her son. So she's both lonely, but she also senses she has this freedom. And she wants to use it. And one of the ways she uses it, as we've discussed, is, like, watching pornography. But when she goes out to dinner with a younger woman who works on her staff at the senior citizens center, she makes a pass at her, which is rejected. And this is the first time she's ever even thought of the possibility of having a relationship with a woman.

And when she's rejected, it's kind of devastating. It's like, OK, I tried freedom. Like, what did I think I was doing? Like, apparently, I can't do that. Apparently, I've made a terrible mistake.

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Now I'm just really embarrassed. It's inappropriate, too, she thinks as, like, the boss to have made a pass at someone who works for her. And she says, like, that's sexual harassment. Like, why did I do that? And she's just heartbroken and disappointed in herself and also inhibited by the response that she's gotten. And I thought it was interesting for you as a male writer to try to really get deep into this woman's head while trying out for the first time a lesbian relationship.

And I think, you know, it really was coming from that sense that, once she starts looking at porn, certain things in real life look different to her. So she's watching all this porn where a confident, experienced woman is seducing a woman who is sort of - reluctant, I guess, is the word that's used in the book.

There's a confident one and a reluctant one. And she's having this wonderful dinner with her employee. And there's - it's kind of flirtatious, and they're discussing sex. And they're discussing gender.

And she keeps feeling, like, the gravity of this porn scenario.

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It's like, oh, you know, which one of us is the confident one? Which one of us is the reluctant one? By the time you read this, I'll probably be back online, searching for the Swedish bikini team -- sans the bikinis, naturally. Oh, and I won't feel the least bit guilty. Don't get me wrong: There was a time -- say, last week -- when I was embarrassed by my, er, electronic research.

Divulge my browsing habits on a national Web site? Close the shades to my office? Tom Brady is just like us But that was then. Back in the Dark Ages, before one man validated this behavior. Before one brave trailblazer lifted all of us icky downloaders -- Paris Hilton and Pam Anderson fans alike -- out of the muck and into the gleaming light of day.

Thank you, Tom Brady. In the newest issue of GQ, Brady laments his pristine public image, noting that it's "all bull I mean I drink, I " "Search the Internet for porn?

Brady may be a three-time Super Bowl winner, a Gap model, a fashion magazine coverboy. But underneath it all, he's jus' folks. Really and truly, right down to his Web surfing. I feel better already. Some might interpret Brady's comments as a way of staying grounded within the New England locker room.

Others -- cynics and blackhearts -- might see them as publicist-prepared pabulum designed to burnish Brady's common-man appeal, along the lines of President Bush the elder using a supermarket checkout scanner. I think Brady is performing a vital public service. In all of human history, there has never been a worse time to not be incredibly blessed. For eons, rich, beautiful, successful people and the fabulous lives they led were remote, inaccessible, almost abstract. There was no compelling reason to bemoan one's lousy, average lot, because everyone you saw and knew had a lousy, average lot as well.

The fortunate few who had it good were little more than a rumor. Sure, you could see the parapets of the King's castle from the dirt floor of your straw hut. But good luck knocking on the castle door without being drawn and quartered.

Today, this is no longer the case. Mass media happened, and with it, fame and celebrity. The spectacularly well-to-do now invite us into their cribs, one MTV camera crew at a time.